offline Raisinbman Guru  
Saturday 11/09/2010, 21:21

Now in ELO we all know you have to have multiple decks to counter what you're seeing played. My question is, is there a general counter list to each clan somewhere?

For instance, you've got heavy roots/piranhas right now so I switched to Skeelz in order to avoid getting my cards lobotomized.

Any other thoughts?

offline Ouroboros-WMD Hero Wise Men Distracted
Monday 13/09/2010, 15:55

Well this week Roots arent too big it is the load of Gheist out there. Run Skeelz to counter them then people start running att manipulation to kill the Skeelz but lose to the SoA. Cycling this week.

offline DrTravelerLoA Senior Legends of America
Monday 13/09/2010, 19:12

Seems like this should be a case of Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock. At least in Theory.

Lets say the groups break down into basically 5 groups:
SoA clans: Roots, GHEIST
SoB Clans: Piranas, Nightmare
Attack/Power Manipulators: Rescue, Monata, Sentinel, Junkz, Sarkohm, Uppers, Ulu Watu, Bangers, All Stars
"Win" Oriented clans (Clans that attempt to make the most of winning one round or attempt to limit the effects of losing multiple rounds): Pussycats, Freaks, Vortex, La Junta, Fang Pi Chi, Jungo

Then in theory each group should be strong against at least two other groups, and weak against two others, building a rock paper scissors game but with 5 components.

In some cases this works. For example: Skeelz do well against SoA and SoB for the most part as those clans can't really disrupt the Skeelz strategy, but struggle against Attack/Power Manipulators and "Win" clans as those clans simply outgun the Skeelz with the combination of Abilities and Bonuses.

In my experience the chart ought to go like this:
Manipulators, "Win">Skeelsz>SoA, SoB
Skeelz, SoB>SoA>"Win", Manipulators
Skeelz, Win>SoB>SoA, Manipulators
SoB, SoA>Manipulators>"Win", Skeelz
Manipulators, SoA>"Win">SoB,Skeelz

But in practice it varies up as all the clans have some elements of many different groups. Plus, Half Decks can really mess up this chart.

offline Raisinbman Guru  
Monday 13/09/2010, 23:41

K thanks for the input, think I'm going to make a guide with this information!

offline Raisinbman Guru  
Monday 13/09/2010, 23:53

Actually, one more question: sure, we can't really judge Vortex fully yet, but how would you counter them? SOA is of limited use IMO, so SOB or Manipulation would be better, thoughts?

offline DrTravelerLoA Senior Legends of America
Tuesday 14/09/2010, 00:26

Vortex does not fare well against SoB. In fact, during DT's in ELO I've had Vortex players scoop and withdraw when they see I'm playing Piranas.

That's an example of how the guide above has problems when you go to actually apply it. Some of the clans in a group don't perform as well as they should against clans they should have an advantage against. Sometimes a clan performs just fine against a clan that should beat it hands down. For example, during weeks where Sledg is not ELO banned, Rescue can do quite well against Piranas and Nightmare.

Part of the problem is that some of the groups are quite small (Skeelz is literally a clan all to itself in the hierarchy), and some categories are quite large (There are 8 attack and power manipulation clans). So it is very hard to build an actual hierarchy of clan counters and have it make sense.

Another problem is that clans are frequently at different strengths from week to week as ELO bans take their tolls.

Good luck writing a guide to this. I'll be interested to read it.

offline Raisinbman Guru  
Tuesday 14/09/2010, 02:19

Yeah I understand there is no "ULTIMATE KILL EVERYTHING" guide, but I'm just looking for ways to change up my playstyle in case I'm losing like crazy. Like for the +/- attack clans, though they are manipulation, stopping their bonus isn't a free win by any means.

offline wasteroftime Titan Open Casket
Tuesday 14/09/2010, 11:19

All the > and < and = signs are making this tough to understand. the matchups are really quite hard to simplify

ie. people are saying +/- attack clans lose to SOB... well not really. Rescue with Kerry Sledg Elvira and Lea is a really bad match up for most Piranha draws.

the a +/- clans match up differently to one another, Rescue have slight edge over Montana cause they force them to pill. the - clans are a slightly better match up vs Montana compared to the + clans because they force Montana to use 2 pilz

+2 damage clans lose a lot of their threat vs SOB clans since a 2 hit KO is harder to pull off.... although the damage clans have a hard time vs attack/power clans, they are more dangerous due to the 2 hit threat.

youd have to go clan by clan really. My advice is to play as many clans as possible, use them in mono, use them split-decks. Once you know how each clan plays out, then you understand the weaknesses of each one and you can target those weaknesses when you face them

offline Steelie_MOB Titan Masters of Battle
Tuesday 14/09/2010, 13:41

Yes, the best advice here came from the timewaster, just play as maney clans as possible, and as much as possible, you will see how people beat you, and by that know the weaknesses

offline Raisinbman Guru  
Tuesday 14/09/2010, 15:01

No guide is perfect - I said that earlier. Also, I'm talking strictly bonus and then delving into abilities(possibly). In fighting games, there's something called a 'matchup' if you will. It may be likely that someone will win, but not guaranteed(EX: Has a bad hand or opponent has a good hand).

And really, a guide is an informed opinion.

offline 0 Anderson Imperator Time Conquers All
Tuesday 14/09/2010, 15:52

GHEIST is great against roots, so is junkz and sakrohm.

Answer to this subject

Clint City, day.