offline Frowns Imperator At the End of the World
Monday 24/09/2012, 21:45

It seems like 10,000 players online is an average number these days. Was it less or more a few years ago?

offline wasteroftime Titan Open Casket
Thursday 27/09/2012, 07:15

Yep, ready to use starter decks is definitely a good direction to move towards

the old premade decks that you could buy for a few credits.. those definitely would be suitable starting decks new player decks.

as for inflation of prices... lol. a virtual economy with virtually infinite money flow and no real money sink is doomed to inflate.

offline DeepEnd Imperator Limit Break
Thursday 27/09/2012, 08:35

I have always thought about this inflation thing, and how important/meaningful it is on the market and why I dont personally feel that this inflation is bad thing.

Last night I realized it. Urban Rivals is bi-currency system. Clintz are relative currency - thus it has things like relative value thus it can have inflation.

Second currency is credits... they are absolute value since they turn to cards - that are measured against inflated price. Inflation concerns clintz - but not credits.

Hence - inflation is real, but it is nullified by the fact that the absolute value of packs does not change (and that value is not measured in clintz - and if it is then it is "daily rate" - thus it gives out fair outcome). Everyman's ability to create clintz is roughly equal, it just wont be same number now and later - but it will buy same relative amount of cards now and then.

This all means that inflation is real, but its just feature in the economic model of UR, it has no real ill effects to anyone but people sitting on idle pile of clintz.

How to personallty brace against inflation?

Simple. Own cards - not clintz. You should concern clintz "hot" and get rid of them pretty fast. I estimate each month you sit on idle pile of clintz eats away about 2% of its worth.

" trading through the market is only secondary to garnering"

Says who? If you ask me market is the best and most interesting game mode in UR. Market tournaments can last easily years smiley

offline DeepEnd Imperator Limit Break
Thursday 27/09/2012, 08:55

"a virtual economy with virtually infinite money flow and no real money sink is doomed to inflate."

The biggest moneysinks:

1) Kate tax.
2) Infinite moneyspace created by CR's that both grow in price and in total number.
3) Failed investment schemes (Buy Bob Jobys at 1000 and resell them at 150 = 850 clintz dissappear. *POOF*)
4) Collections that are not for sale.
5) People quitting and shutting their wealth permanently.

There are your logical money sinks.

We are on the uphill regarding inflation. The prices can still grow, and if UR introduces new sources of clintz the inflation can grow in the future too. But the moment UR's ability to create money is less than the Kate fee collected from total market actions + money spend to new cards this system starts running out of money - and once that happens the prices will have to come down, either by investors free-willing actions or by natural supply clogging the schemes.

offline wasteroftime Titan Open Casket
Friday 28/09/2012, 07:04

I think people are overthinking the concept of inflation... inflation is far simpler than what a lot of previous post on this topic make it out to be.

What is the purchasing power of 1 clint???? thats it. The best way to fight inflation is to own cards as DeepEnd has said

Is the amount of clintz entering the system on a weekly basis greater than the virtual value of the cards that enter the system on a weekly basis (plus kate tax, minus the amount of cards that are no longer in the system due to account retiring or being deleted forever). if the clintz entering is greater then prices will increase. if clintz is lower, then prices will drop.

since prices are increasing, one has to conclude that more clintz is entering the system than the value of new cards

as for sinks

1) Kate tax. -- this is really the only one
2) Infinite moneyspace created by CR's that both grow in price and in total number. -- this is not a sink, no clintz wil disappear in the process, only what kate takes.
3) Failed investment schemes (Buy Bob Jobys at 1000 and resell them at 150 = 850 clintz dissappear. *POOF*) -- again no clintz will leave the system, only what kate takes
4) Collections that are not for sale. -- this is actually a contributor to the increase in price. the less cards there are for sale, the more clintz there is that can be spent on a smaller pool of cards.
5) People quitting and shutting their wealth permanently. -- only if the person quitting has more clintz than cards. removing cards from the system means the clintz have less places to go... driving the price up of the remaining cards. if a person quits with 8 million clintz and cards worth 2 million, then we can say that roughly 8 million clintz have left the system... but so has 2 million clintz worth of resources.... for a net loss of about 6million clintz from the UR economy

the market can be a fun place once you get your teeth into it, but in the long run.... not sure the trend continuing is good for the overall health of the game

offline ghelas Titan E X C A L I B U R
Friday 28/09/2012, 08:00

Interesting to see both sides of the inflation debate. I have mixed feelings on the above -- it's a complicated process, and it's quite difficult to see where all this will lead. On one hand, a new player might feel intimidated by sky-high card prices. On the other hand, a new player might pull a 70k card out of a New Blood pack, and easily buy two or three solid half-decks with that money.

I do have this to say, however. I used to play a certain online game which involved a lengthy grind, with many items being incredibly rare (dropping off 1 in 10,000 monsters.) There was no decay or sink for items, and almost no decay or sink for small in-game currency. Eventually this resulted in sky-high prices for rare items, because people could ultimately afford to pay them. There was a period of frantic high-price trading, and then... A sort of crash. People simply ran out of things to want, and prices rapidly fell. Even the poor players had tens of millions of currency and at least a few ridiculously rare things that might take a month of grinding to be able to loot, simply because there were enough players out there with no use for it. Trading didn't make much sense anymore.

UR looks as though it can avoid this fate due to the fact that new cards are introduced every 2 weeks. However, that means the cost of new cards must be greater than what a player is able to make in 2 weeks. So, I think new release prices will keep growing in a huge way, a bit "ahead" of inflation.

offline mahawirasd Imperator Immortality
Friday 28/09/2012, 16:34

Oshi ghelas, you played RO?
well, in RO, inflation really is an issue like how you described it, so it really depends on the server to install counter-measures. There are a variety of means to do so, and i happen to have found one such server that has been able to keep inflation at bay for over 5 years.
But i digress.

I basically think deepend and wasteroftime discussed it quite thoroughly. However, there might be some options we could explore to help sink more clintz.
for example: the lucky draw/roulette - it used to reward Crs, but currently it rewards money
this is a somewhat unfortunate development imho.
Although it does have the potential to sink money from the unlucky tickets, but it still has that slight chance of infusing so much more to the game. I do not know whether the house cheats or if it is given a fair chance (to recoup your clintz in the long run), but the fact of the matter is that it sill has that chance (no matter how small).
I understand that reverting it to reward Crs would be somewhat silly, but perhaps we could make it reward roulette tickets or cards of varying values rather than clintz. Although cards can still be sold back to kate for clintz, it is usually of more value in the market. This will create more doubles and more fluid markets - coupled with the sale tax, this is a good thing.


offline ghelas Titan E X C A L I B U R
Saturday 29/09/2012, 01:58

Yep, RO was the game in question.

I think your ideas are pretty sound. Basically if we want to fight inflation, we need a way for players to transform clintz into cards that don't come from other players, but are created by the game. And yes, that will naturally devalue cards somewhat over time -- but that may not be such a bad thing.

Maybe the events that allow this kind of prize system can be something that happens once a month. That would encourage players to flock to them and dump a lot of clintz in while they can... At the same time, it wouldn't devalue cards as much as if it were always an available option.

I also like the idea of guilds putting up money for silly, cosmetic little guild perks -- forum badges and whatnot. Many guilds are hundreds strong, and it wouldn't be crazy to charge a guild 1-5 million for some silly status item, but it would help remove money from the game. smiley

offline wasteroftime Titan Open Casket
Saturday 29/09/2012, 05:44

Switching the lottery so that you spend clintz to buy tickets, and tickets can win you cards/credits is one possibility. ofcourse the lotto just like any real life lotto is meant for almost everyone to lose but a few lucky winners might make playing the lottery attractive to some.

DT/ELO/DM/Survivor/whatever winners could be awarded less clintz but receive more cards/credits instead

the problem with inserting too many cards into the system is it can crash the system.... even the"rarest" non CR cards (and all the more recent Crs) in this game is surely oversupplied as it is, but there is an illusion of rarity that keeps us believing in the "worth" of each card

offline DeepEnd Imperator Limit Break
Saturday 29/09/2012, 12:10

My suggestion to remove clintz from the market is to be able to rent high value cards for good price. You could roll out for example Guru Cr for 2 hours for 10000 clintz.

That would be both very attracting and removing clintz from the market - since they are lost to UR instead of other players.

Other clintz sink could be extented service - I would pay easily thousands of clintz to have peek at internal UR market details or have some for-clintz improvement to user interface (like being able to track all my favorite cards on the market on one screen.)

offline mahawirasd Imperator Immortality
Sunday 30/09/2012, 08:50

Ty Ghelas, your idea also seems to be very good. I like how you've brainstormed that out of nowhere! smiley

although i agree regarding what you're getting at, i would contend that the market as it is now already has too many "non-rare" cards and that the lower end of the economy has "crashed" to the point that some cards are easier to sell back to kate for 40 clintz. If anything, such devaluation of cards due to over supply would only even out the inflation rate of the clintz. I realize that these projections are preliminary, therefore i value the discourse you have provided.

1. good idea on the card hire, although i could imagine it would be so hard to script.
2. sadly there are already several external sites dedicated to do just that. Nevertheless, your point about the added value it would have if it was hosted by UR itself as well as better interface could probably make it fly.


Answer to this subject

Clint City, night.