offline 0_The_Oracle Imperator Open Casket
Sunday 06/01/2013, 16:52

Hey guys so I will just start us off. I dont get how lizbeth is on top of the charts??? I mean for 1 less damage, you get lulabee, which is FAR more stable than lizbeth. I know, different clans, but Ulu is not that bad by themselves. + there are many replacements, and lizbeth is what, like 60k? this is ridiculous.

I think Dorian is quite borderline as well, uppers can still do pretty well without him. Herman, hefty, even lady are all replacements for dorian, i mean i know he is strong against SoA, but thats it!. Herman is actually more threatening than dorian in many matchups minus gheist/roots.

offline ghelas Titan E X C A L I B U R
Tuesday 08/01/2013, 17:36

@ Oracle: It depends completely on your deck. X-0 if you need control and/or want the option to sneak in a fury KO with other 6 damage cards. Dagg if you need to wall or force pills. T-Gaank if you want a solid card and/or DR penetrating perpetrator.

I like T-Gaank a lot in the current meta...

UR's decision making, though, is spot on. Other clans have 4s with more impact when they're not ability blocked, but less solidness... But they also have more solid cards in other star categories. In Vortex, every OTHER card sucks if ability blocked, so they desperately need those solid 4s.

offline AGPrinz Titan The BeSharps
Tuesday 08/01/2013, 20:16

Ok, in all those examples you named, how many could match 8-6 stats?

8-6 against nightmare... Azgroth? and he has a measly 4 damage , you can play around him. Raeth? Thats arguable since futoshi has 1 power and 1 more damage, id choose him.

Allstars? he beats everyone i think with the new bans, aside from silly chars never used. 8 6 is not average. its better than every single alternative lol. There are very few times where futoshi ld isnt simply a better card.

roots dont have 8 powered cards, neither do gheist. He matches Anabal WITHOUT revenge.

offline ghelas Titan E X C A L I B U R
Wednesday 09/01/2013, 01:50

Prinz, it's not about whether cards in other clans have equivalent stats -- it's about the potential advantage.

Futoshi fighting a 7-power from Nightmare, for example, has a 1 power advantage. Meaning... You could read him as 7 power with +1 attack PER pill.

This is a marginal advantage. Even though he will beat most cards pill-for-pill, a pill-for-pill play is very rare. Not until 8 pills is a 7 power in Nightmare going to need 2 extra pills to beat him!

You say "there are very few times where Futoshi Ld isn't simply a better card." You are neglecting to see that cards play multiple roles beyond just winning rounds. Some power 4*s are meant to be a looming threat, some are meant as multi-functional cards. Rarely is a 4* considered strong just because he can win rounds fairly well.

NM's Kenny Cr may have a lowly 6 power, but in the right hand, you can all-pill/fury him and win. PC's Diana creates more gap than Futoshi unless facing SoA, has the same power, and even has a little bit of built-in DR on top of all that. Ulu's Eddie will have a whopping 10 power against most opponents and, while he also suffers against SoA, he still has a solid 8 power vs SoB. Note that he matches Futoshi's round winning strength, exceeds it against some opponents, and his potential gap is 9! Some other 4s that are on par with Futoshi: Marina, Maurice, Nellie, the 3 Vortex, Greem, Dr. Falkenstein, Donnie, FPC's own Fei.... I could keep listing if you want. smiley

offline T0P_LoA Colossus Legends of America
Wednesday 09/01/2013, 02:40

COB =/= SOB. They're similar but they are very different in most situations.

offline 0_The_Oracle Imperator Open Casket
Wednesday 09/01/2013, 05:27

@t0p but they are pretty much as good as each other. how is futoshi ld op? if he is why is no one complaining about shifou??? and saki has 1 less pwoer and 1 less star, but a better bonus. hence a better card, and no ones complaining about her? and futoshi ld is a LEGENDARY he is meant to be good, and also he is not op.... chlora is the same thing pretty much.

offline T0P_LoA Colossus Legends of America
Wednesday 09/01/2013, 07:16

Again, you're comparing two very different abilities.

There are many situations where'd I'd rather copy a bonus than just stop it and vice versa. A great example of this would be against a clan like Freaks. COB is more flexible.

Not all LDs are good either, most are just mediocre.

offline 0_The_Oracle Imperator Open Casket
Wednesday 09/01/2013, 12:23

Any more opinions on vortex 4*s? i would love to hear

offline wats_happenin Colossus Casual Grind
Wednesday 09/01/2013, 13:01

Oracle...your a bit of a strange one. You ask questions but then give your own opinion anyway? Why not just go with your opinion to begin with.

T gaank vs marina is arguably one of the best match ups he has..even then though Marina only has to pill one more pill than him to beat the guy up to a fair amount of pillz (6-7)
I never said he was bad, all I'm saying is that IMO the other 2 are better, and that is a general consensus.
SOA in most forms is highly useful (confidence probably the worst) to have and Dagg's unpredictability coupled with his insane round-winning ability makes them slightly better

Im not trying to belittle you, but every single post from that 'tier card list' post of yours was simply you disagreeing with someones post then putting forward your own and saying it's right..why ask questions if you dont like the answers?

offline maki_mUR Senior Dragons Cro Clan
Wednesday 09/01/2013, 15:38

I'd rate Dagg the lowest of the 3, unless you pair them up with a high damaging clan or poison, then he would be the best for me. So, if I base my deck on the vortex side I'd use the other two, if I play vortex as support, I'd use dagg only.

offline AGPrinz Titan The BeSharps
Wednesday 09/01/2013, 18:31

Im not neglecting anything lol. He fills his ROLE better than any other 4* card, pretty much.

I think you are failing to mention the fact that eddie, is medicore at best, who is stopped by so many things, first being SOA, the second being + life and even poison, since heal goes after poison. Also, not fairly well - better than every other alternative bar silly cards that never see play due to their own weaknesses.

Are you really going to compare these cards with Futoshi LD? Nellie is far less stable, Marina is already OP, same with Greem, Same with DR Falkenstien, Donnie is simply not better, he is revenge based for starters, second he loses in stats, Fei is garbage... why would i take fei when i can take futoshi and heitachi. So, maybe you should keep listing, or at least tell me another card that is 7 power and - 16 attack with 5 damage...and is immune to SOA. And yes, i think jessica is OP as well, but it was less noticeable before dr falkenstien.

I think people realize that saki is a staple, but she only has 4 damage. She is certainly a broken card, however, Allstars have very little damage without marina for the DR.

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