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ELO 2.0 (some ramblings and a suggestion)

ELO 2.0 (some ramblings and a suggestion)
Monday 29/04/2013, 12:42
ghelas - Titan English

Urban Rivals | Free Online Manga Trading Card Game | TCG | MMO
43 messages
ELO 2.0 (some ramblings and a suggestion)
ghelas - Titan - The TrendEnglish - Monday 29/04/2013, 12:42

I'd like to make a suggestion regarding ELO mode.

Even though ELO is, in a way, more balanced than ever before, I think there is still a pretty big issue. A lot of clans have too many cards that are good in fairly random ways, sometimes countering the opponent's hand by chance instead of design. While the most powerful cards like Kalindra get ELO banned rather fast, the slightly OP counter-cards created to deal with them remain...

The result is that clans have less of an identity than ever, power creep is becoming more prominent, and the meta feels less focused than before the last wave of perma-bans. FPC does SoB better than Piranas. Sakrohm have a recently released 4* that's better than a recently released Skeelz 5*. And so on...

I think Standard was an attempt to solve this exact issue, and I can now see the need for a solution along those lines. However, I think there is a far more eloquent way to implement it.

Here's my idea:

-A ranked mode, similar to ELO.
-Only 8 clans playable per week, 5 chosen at random and 3 chosen by player vote.
-ELO banned cards, both temp and perma, not playable in this mode.
-To give players incentive to play both ELO and the new mode, increase rewards for players outside of T100 in both modes.

What does everyone think? Would this be a good play mode to see? Any issues, suggestions, feedback of any kind? Very eager to hear if ELO regulars would enjoy this mode.
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31/43
wasteroftime - Moderator - Open Casket English
Friday 03/05/2013, 06:06

Or we just carry on

killing old cards is what the most successful CCG has done, not a bad model to follow imho

ofcourse new decks will be created to find the best deck for the existing meta, thats what makes this fun. and once that has been established --- you reset something -- that is what ELO has been doing this whole time.

but regardless, we may disagree on the details, but i think most veteran players agree something new needs to happen
32/43
wasteroftime - Moderator - Open Casket English
Friday 03/05/2013, 06:11

This

6) I actually think this could go somewhere, but I suggest banning the top 2 most used cards for every clan automatically, or banning all the characters that show up in Format Election, for this game mode.

and this

6) What you're doing is basically staff bans in reverse by changing a core set for every single clan. Not only is this troublesome to implement, but then ELO becomes a "what holes did the UR staff forget when picking core sets" detective game. Every core set of cards will always have a blatantly overpowered clan, because certain clans have extremely weak new cards, conversely cards with strong new cards, no matter how the core sets are arranged, will come out on top. If you have a core set of 5-6 power cards, Montana, Rescue and All-Stars automatically become the strongest clans to use.

changed your mind so quickly?

but hey its just an idea, it can be changed. if you pick a core set of 5-6 power clans, give the non attack clans bug damage and good defensive abilities, give the attack clans weak dmg and lower power so they have to win 3 rounds. this is not that difficult mate. it can be done.

montanas with 4-5 power would not have a huge advantage over 6 powered FPC/Juntas
33/43
WMDuessel - Imperator - Wise Men Distracted English
Friday 03/05/2013, 06:26

Banning 2 cards is entirely different from selecting a small set of cards from 50 characters in a clan. Stop putting words into my mouth. Format election banning is convenient because
1. Automatically shows which cards are the most overused.
2. Removing them allows for drastic change I'm strategy, no more go-to cards, but creative players will still play well in this environment.
3. There is no room for human error, because it is the players themselves who make this list based on card usage, and nothing else.

Core is flawed, because of human error. It's almost sure that whoever does the handpicking will overlook certain cards, these cards and clans will then be discovered, and abused. Considering the time it takes to make a new core set, it will be very inconvenient, one-dimensional and boring. Format election is quick, automatic and takes away the most used cards, forcing players to play unorthodox.

You also contradict yourself when you say only new cards can be used, and then limit their power to 5-6. What new cards have 5-6 power? Some clans won't even be able to form a half deck. In fact, how will you even fill 25* with low powered cards like this? Cards like Copper, who technically has 5 power, are godlike. If you count bonuses and abilities when factoring in power, you'll find almost no Bangers or Ulu to use.

These 4-5 power Montanas beat 6 powered Juntas/FPCs pill-for-pill, and their star count is probably lower too. There's just no argument.

Agree to disagree.
34/43
ghelas - Titan - The Trend English
Friday 03/05/2013, 06:29

@Waster:

Nah, I think I'm just trying to be more... What's the word? Considerate?

I think players as a whole want rewards, as evidenced by the huge numbers of people playing Duel. But, to put it bluntly, the players I care about tend to think that a nice solid T100, or better yet, beating your best ELO score, is an even better reward than a CR.

The ELO-vs-Standard thing was poorly phrased. Another mode is always welcome, and a good mode could of course renew interest in the game. The problem is that Standard wasn't going to be it, and in the way that it was proposed at the time, it replacing ELO would have been catastrophic. You can see now that Standard isn't terribly popular, that players craving strategic play generally avoid it, and Duel demonstrates that the mode that has the EASIEST rewards will have the most followers. If Standard didn't give you an easy chance at a daily CR win, odds are it would be one of our most neglected modes.

Although having been around a bit longer has changed my opinions on some things, I think there's a lot we don't quite agree about, but that's fine. There's always been a lot of common ground as well, and both of our ramblings were always out of concern for the game.
35/43
wasteroftime - Moderator - Open Casket English
Friday 03/05/2013, 06:58

@forky
We can bash are heads all day and never Hammer out the details mate

but we are in agreement over how it would be nice for something new... read your first reply and then slowly we move from general agreement to disagreement. its the nature of the beast. its details... which is just that -- a big who cares really. the big change is more important.

and by new i mean like really really really NEW as in the cards coming out tomorrow.

@ghelas... you should read you old posts, thats all old you would be disagreeing with new you

edited by wasteroftime Friday 03/05/2013, 06:58
36/43
AGPrinz - Titan - 'AktivGaming' English
Friday 03/05/2013, 07:05

I really hope UR doesnt spend resources making a new game mode instead of fixing the broken one that is ELO.

Things ELO needs --> Striker and WeeLee unbanned, better rewards, more banned cards (Dorian, Rubie, Marlysa Cr, Troompah, Spaghai or Mona or Avola, gretjan or Jeena, Mokra or Uranus

i think if you are looking for more competition, they should introduce a "low tier mode" or something.
37/43
ghelas - Titan - The Trend English
Friday 03/05/2013, 07:23

@Waster: The old me and the new me don't always agree. Sign of growth, I think.

@Prinz: I think ELO isn't horrible as it is now, but it's a bit unbalanced. The reason for this is counter-cards made to help dampen the impact of Kalindra, Spyke, and any other flavor-of-the-month OP card that's eventually destined for the big Perma graveyard in the sky. Those SLIGHTLY OP counter cards stay in the game by the handful, and make gameplay a lot more random. But banning them all would probably be impossible, since there would be too much resistance and too much divided opinion on which cards are fair and which ones aren't.
38/43
wasteroftime - Moderator - Open Casket English
Friday 03/05/2013, 07:52

Yep i know, your new you would have been with the vets that were telling your old you he is a bit green

current ELO has become too much luck oriented. the most successful CCG on the planet has killed off lots of cards -- UR killing off a few more is not such a bad idea. Change or go stagnant. This is why Fantasy Rivals is doing it the way they are right off the blocks -- it is better for long term health of the game.... the question now is how quickly can they get a solid player base
39/43
ghelas - Titan - The Trend English
Friday 03/05/2013, 08:21

Don't get me wrong, I still feel that cards shouldn't be taken away from players en masse. Bans, nerfs, some reasonable amount of cards cycling out and so on, are okay in my eyes and have always been. A mode that limits cards, especially in a cyclical way, sounds rather ideal. Old version of Standard just proposed to nuke a bunch of cards, though. It was an attempt to replace ELO, which despite not being ideal, had most of its bugs ironed out, with something completely different that would have probably taken months to even remotely balance. As someone who was enjoying ELO at the time, that felt like the devs saying, "hang on, we're going to take this away and bring it back in half a year, hopefully in a better state." Hopefully you can understand why that felt a little heavy-handed, right?

You can actually look at my proposal as being similar to FR, but with a different grouping of clans available every week. Furthermore, drastically OP "Epic equivalents" would have already been taken care of by existing ELO bans. I think it might be an enjoyable experience.
40/43
wasteroftime - Moderator - Open Casket English
Friday 03/05/2013, 08:37

I enjoy elo now dont touch it.... insert lots of arguments here why change is bad.... countered by the veterans going here we go again..
constant change for the sake of avoiding stagnant is good. the fr system will be good for it in the long run. there is nothing stopping ur from going that direction, they have a deep enough pool of cards to pull it off -- thats what
standard could have been and thats what it can still be

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