92 messages
Their -2 opp. power ability makes it just so powerful... Is there any REAL counter?
Seriously though, are there any decent clans or decks in ELO that have a consistent advantage over All Stars when Marina, Striker and Robb are all available? When you add in Eyrik, that's a massive -3 opp. power, and All Stars have cards with both high power (e.g., Marina, Jessie, Stacey, Robb with ability) and damage (e.g., Striker, Randy), and I'm not even talking about their 5* cards. Sure, there are decks that can compete on an even footing, but are there any that are better?
Seriously though, are there any decent clans or decks in ELO that have a consistent advantage over All Stars when Marina, Striker and Robb are all available? When you add in Eyrik, that's a massive -3 opp. power, and All Stars have cards with both high power (e.g., Marina, Jessie, Stacey, Robb with ability) and damage (e.g., Striker, Randy), and I'm not even talking about their 5* cards. Sure, there are decks that can compete on an even footing, but are there any that are better?
21/92
22/92
23/92
Despite loss of Ghumbo, Nightmare is still almost impossible to win without Striker and/or Eyrik.
Bangers are a Nightmare if they get a decent draw - I've won 2/4 rounds with furies and STILL lost matches :/
Pirahna is scary as hell, not as hard as Nightmare w/o Striker Eyrik but not fun at all
Ulu Watu is draw-dependent, it can be rough but it's generally a lot easier than Bangers.
...at least that's my experiences from playing AS to 1420 this week, I'm probably missing some strat or other against Bangers.
Bangers are a Nightmare if they get a decent draw - I've won 2/4 rounds with furies and STILL lost matches :/
Pirahna is scary as hell, not as hard as Nightmare w/o Striker Eyrik but not fun at all
Ulu Watu is draw-dependent, it can be rough but it's generally a lot easier than Bangers.
...at least that's my experiences from playing AS to 1420 this week, I'm probably missing some strat or other against Bangers.
24/92
Pirana really sends a shiver down any AS players spine, but when there's a Nightmare/Piranas half deck, AS are gonna have a bad time. Even with an OK draw:
Smokey Cr
Tula
Oshitsune
Mawpin
Nowhere near what Nightmare and Piranas can get, but Smokey can pill high and get pillz back, where as Oshitsune could have 1 more power, unphased by Eyrik or their bonus.
Smokey Cr
Tula
Oshitsune
Mawpin
Nowhere near what Nightmare and Piranas can get, but Smokey can pill high and get pillz back, where as Oshitsune could have 1 more power, unphased by Eyrik or their bonus.
25/92
@UmExcuseMe
I said Skeels can do well against All Stars even though their bonus is useless against all but a couple of cards.
Also, Piranas don't need the extra damage as they hit both life /and/ pillz reserves. Honestly, I have very little trouble with AS unless the hands are imba.
"Bangers and Ulu Watu do cancel out AS in a head-to-head fight, but on the whole +2 power is weaker than -2 opp. power. It's that whole power ratio thing (math - ick!). And I don't see their abilities as stronger than AS anyway. Advantage: AS."
When they come up against each other, they cancel each other out. That means that both bonuses are useless. One is not greater than the other.
We're talking about clans vs clans, not in general.
And no,AS do not have better abilities than Ulu Watu. They're pretty much even in fact.
-
Not every clan has a clan that can outright own them, in fact, most clans have enough cards to counter the clans that /would/ give them trouble.
Even Skeelz, who are inherently weak versus power and attack manipulation, have counters:
Sandro
Sasha
Caelus
Tomas
Chiara
Danae
For example, if were running an All Stars deck and you drew, say:
Striker, Marina, Jessie, and Kang
and I was running Skeelz and drew
Sandro, Chiara, Sasha, Manfred
That's not a sure fire win on either side.
All Stars are not OP and they have plenty of counters.
I said Skeels can do well against All Stars even though their bonus is useless against all but a couple of cards.
Also, Piranas don't need the extra damage as they hit both life /and/ pillz reserves. Honestly, I have very little trouble with AS unless the hands are imba.
"Bangers and Ulu Watu do cancel out AS in a head-to-head fight, but on the whole +2 power is weaker than -2 opp. power. It's that whole power ratio thing (math - ick!). And I don't see their abilities as stronger than AS anyway. Advantage: AS."
When they come up against each other, they cancel each other out. That means that both bonuses are useless. One is not greater than the other.
We're talking about clans vs clans, not in general.
And no,AS do not have better abilities than Ulu Watu. They're pretty much even in fact.
-
Not every clan has a clan that can outright own them, in fact, most clans have enough cards to counter the clans that /would/ give them trouble.
Even Skeelz, who are inherently weak versus power and attack manipulation, have counters:
Sandro
Sasha
Caelus
Tomas
Chiara
Danae
For example, if were running an All Stars deck and you drew, say:
Striker, Marina, Jessie, and Kang
and I was running Skeelz and drew
Sandro, Chiara, Sasha, Manfred
That's not a sure fire win on either side.
All Stars are not OP and they have plenty of counters.
26/92
@shadowcouncil
I think you're missing my point. Let me put it another way. Suppose you'll be meeting nothing but AS decks. What deck would you build? I honestly can't think of a deck that can consistently beat Eyrik, Striker, Marina, Robb, Randy, Jessie, Ashley and Stacey.
So yes, there are decks that can hold their own against AS, and probably some that have a minor edge, but I suspect all of these decks will have major trouble against certain other decks. In contrast, I feel that AS is strong against most decks, and equal or almost equal against the rest. So on balance, you can't really go wrong with AS when all their cards are legal.
"We're talking about clans vs clans, not in general."
Actually, I was talking about in general. The AS bonus is superior or equal to the Ulu Watu and Bangers bonuses, in order for Bangers or Ulu Watu to match up to AS, they need to have an advantage elsewhere, and I don't see the advantage. I also disagree that the abilities for Ulu Watu and AS are pretty even, but that's another story.
"Not every clan has a clan that can outright own them..."
Well, no, but all clans should have a clan or deck that they are weak against. E.g., Piranas suffer against Skeelz, who are probably at a disadvantage against Rescue, who hate to meet Piranas. For AS, what is that clan or deck?
If you had a deck that is better or equal to all other decks, why would you play anything else?
I think you're missing my point. Let me put it another way. Suppose you'll be meeting nothing but AS decks. What deck would you build? I honestly can't think of a deck that can consistently beat Eyrik, Striker, Marina, Robb, Randy, Jessie, Ashley and Stacey.
So yes, there are decks that can hold their own against AS, and probably some that have a minor edge, but I suspect all of these decks will have major trouble against certain other decks. In contrast, I feel that AS is strong against most decks, and equal or almost equal against the rest. So on balance, you can't really go wrong with AS when all their cards are legal.
"We're talking about clans vs clans, not in general."
Actually, I was talking about in general. The AS bonus is superior or equal to the Ulu Watu and Bangers bonuses, in order for Bangers or Ulu Watu to match up to AS, they need to have an advantage elsewhere, and I don't see the advantage. I also disagree that the abilities for Ulu Watu and AS are pretty even, but that's another story.
"Not every clan has a clan that can outright own them..."
Well, no, but all clans should have a clan or deck that they are weak against. E.g., Piranas suffer against Skeelz, who are probably at a disadvantage against Rescue, who hate to meet Piranas. For AS, what is that clan or deck?
If you had a deck that is better or equal to all other decks, why would you play anything else?
27/92
@Puritas: Um, you got to 1420. Not too bad, eh?
@END_Zack: Nightmare/Piranas could be the answer, but it's unfortunate that Caelus is around, so there will be plenty of Skeelz to ruin your day. Furthermore, Smokey Cr has lower power than Robb or Stacey, equal power to Jessie and Robb, or be negated by Striker. Oshitsune is shut down by Striker, has equal power to Stacey, or at worst is reduced to 4 damage by Marina or Ashley. Nightmare/Piranas may have an advantage, but it's slight. In fact, a 3/1 clan draw could make all the difference (e.g., if Oshitsune was the only Nightmare drawn, he's suddenly pretty useless).
Anyway, I'm glad this week is almost over. Let's see what the next week brings...
@END_Zack: Nightmare/Piranas could be the answer, but it's unfortunate that Caelus is around, so there will be plenty of Skeelz to ruin your day. Furthermore, Smokey Cr has lower power than Robb or Stacey, equal power to Jessie and Robb, or be negated by Striker. Oshitsune is shut down by Striker, has equal power to Stacey, or at worst is reduced to 4 damage by Marina or Ashley. Nightmare/Piranas may have an advantage, but it's slight. In fact, a 3/1 clan draw could make all the difference (e.g., if Oshitsune was the only Nightmare drawn, he's suddenly pretty useless).
Anyway, I'm glad this week is almost over. Let's see what the next week brings...
28/92
" I also disagree that the abilities for Ulu Watu and AS are pretty even, but that's another story."
Go here:
Ulu Watu - http://urdb.kirlad.net/clan.php?show=15
All Stars - http://urdb.kirlad.net/clan.php?show=1
These clans are /very/ balanced in terms of abilities, clear as day.
"I think you're missing my point."
I'm not.
"I honestly can't think of a deck that can consistently beat Eyrik (R), Striker (U), Marina (R), Robb (R), Randy (U), Jessie (R), Ashley (C) and Stacey (U)."
They're are /plenty/ of decks that can beat that. Consistently beat? Maybe, maybe not. That's /entirely dependent on luck of the draw and player skill. That deck is certainly not going to consistently beat anyone by itself. /No/ deck is, and this is why your argument is flawed at its foundation.
Let's take the strongest hand and imagine you always drew it, so:
Striker, Marina, Robb/Randy, Eyrik.
Put that up against /any/ of the following and you're going to have a real fight on your hands:
Morphun, Toro, Leviatonn, Bristone.
Hugo, Edd, Mona, Spiaghi.
Selma, Kristin, Tula, Tyd.
Eryk, Zack, Janice, Gaia.
And so on...
I've come up against hands from that deck with the following 8 card mono sets and beaten them. Somtimes with ease, sometimes with difficulty. I've also lost to ASs, but the ratio is certainly not one which points towards AS dominance in any way.
Taljion's Targe
Stop Signal
Roots Manœuvres
deleted - for DM, and not entirely mono, but can handle AS with no major problem
Go here:
Ulu Watu - http://urdb.kirlad.net/clan.php?show=15
All Stars - http://urdb.kirlad.net/clan.php?show=1
These clans are /very/ balanced in terms of abilities, clear as day.
"I think you're missing my point."
I'm not.
"I honestly can't think of a deck that can consistently beat Eyrik (R), Striker (U), Marina (R), Robb (R), Randy (U), Jessie (R), Ashley (C) and Stacey (U)."
They're are /plenty/ of decks that can beat that. Consistently beat? Maybe, maybe not. That's /entirely dependent on luck of the draw and player skill. That deck is certainly not going to consistently beat anyone by itself. /No/ deck is, and this is why your argument is flawed at its foundation.
Let's take the strongest hand and imagine you always drew it, so:
Striker, Marina, Robb/Randy, Eyrik.
Put that up against /any/ of the following and you're going to have a real fight on your hands:
Morphun, Toro, Leviatonn, Bristone.
Hugo, Edd, Mona, Spiaghi.
Selma, Kristin, Tula, Tyd.
Eryk, Zack, Janice, Gaia.
And so on...
I've come up against hands from that deck with the following 8 card mono sets and beaten them. Somtimes with ease, sometimes with difficulty. I've also lost to ASs, but the ratio is certainly not one which points towards AS dominance in any way.
Taljion's Targe
Stop Signal
Roots Manœuvres
deleted - for DM, and not entirely mono, but can handle AS with no major problem
29/92
"If you had a deck that is better or equal to all other decks, why would you play anything else?"
This deck doesn't exist. Some clans are better than others in various modes, but each mode is balanced by the clans that can reach the upper tiers within.
AS do not consistently dominate Elo, nor any of the other modes. If they did you'd have a point to make, but as they don't your entire argument is shot down.
This deck doesn't exist. Some clans are better than others in various modes, but each mode is balanced by the clans that can reach the upper tiers within.
AS do not consistently dominate Elo, nor any of the other modes. If they did you'd have a point to make, but as they don't your entire argument is shot down.
30/92
AS do not consistently dominate Elo, nor any of the other modes. If they did you'd have a point to make, but as they don't your entire argument is shot down.
but it all depends on what gets banned or not
AS was the safe bet on the week that just passed, one big reason being Caelus. any other deck runs the possibility of being bullied by this beast.
but it all depends on what gets banned or not
AS was the safe bet on the week that just passed, one big reason being Caelus. any other deck runs the possibility of being bullied by this beast.
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