Their -2 opp. power ability makes it just so powerful... Is there any REAL counter?
Seriously though, are there any decent clans or decks in ELO that have a consistent advantage over All Stars when Marina, Striker and Robb are all available? When you add in Eyrik, that's a massive -3 opp. power, and All Stars have cards with both high power (e.g., Marina, Jessie, Stacey, Robb with ability) and damage (e.g., Striker, Randy), and I'm not even talking about their 5* cards. Sure, there are decks that can compete on an even footing, but are there any that are better?
Yeah, Sledg loses to Tyd on a 12 pill battle. Er, and guess what? Sledg beats Tyd 0-10 pillz. And I think that's the usual range for people playing with Sledg. Sting does not win, because what happens when THEY pill? *Gasps* They win! And incase you haven't noticed, the cards you mentioned only have 4 damage aswell, where as Sledg has 7. And for the rest you trade DR? What? I'm pretty sure there's only Ulrich as a DR, so you still have atleast 1 more card to put in.
@traveller (from page 5) "I think any interesting question us this: if we accept All Stars are possibly too good in ELO, what about ELO makes them so powerful when All Stars aren't exactly dominating in T1 or T2?"
Jackie, Zatman, Vickie CR and Lys Teria are in T1.
And T2 is about 5*s, which completely overmatch All- Star's strengths in Jessie, Marina, Randy and Robb. Striker's the only one that can play in T2 and even he's underwhelming since SOA doesn't do a lot there. So there's no point in bringing up T2. It's not a problem with the clan bonus, -2 power is nice still, but AS 5*s get beat card for card by Ulu and Banger 5*s. Tanaereva, Lulabee/ Miss Lulabee, Wee Lee, Stanly, Hikiyousan... Between clan bonus and high star damage reducers, Ulu Watu is simply designed to own T2. They are also what you use in T2 if you don't have CRs.
"Sledg (C) beats Tyd (C) 0-10 pillz. And I think that's the usual range for people playing with Sledg (C). "
And you would be wrong. Rescue vs. Piranas, the correct play (and the best play) is 12 pills on Sledg:
Since you drew Sledg, Piranas have the initiative.
You aren't coming over with Sledg first, your play is going to be a DR if you have it, I don't care who I play because it doesn't matter who wins.
On 2, I'm going over with something inconsequential like Ulrich 2nd round. Since this round don't matter either, the correct play for Rescue is no pills. You lose hard if you pill in these 2 rounds.
Now I have Tyd and Sting left and you have Sledg and who cares. So you come over with Sledg on turn 3 with 12 pills because Sting gets Courage on turn 4 and would own Sledg even harder than Tyd. I stop Sledg with Tyd at 12 pills then I come over and Sting beats up whoever you have left.
The best play is to put 12 pills on Sledg on 3 because Rescue can't beat Sting on 4.
That's what happens every time.
Since Rounds 1 or 2 don't matter, Rescue can't get a better result. Piranas is going to get wins with Tyd and Sting and that's going to beat what Rescue wins with. If Rescue pills and plays any differently, not only does Piranas still win the last 2 rounds with Tyd and Sting, but possibly do 2 more damage with Fury as well.
So Sledg in no way whatsoever makes it a 50/50 match up...
Have to disagree. It isn't Sledge all by himself, its Kerry, Sledg, Lea, Steve, Anita, and Elvira being in the mix. the "standard" ELO Rescue deck, with Sledg, does pretty well against any Piranas build without Morphun. The only really dead card in that match up for Rescue is Glosh, and if you're expecting a heavy Piranas presence in ELO you can ditch him for Suzie. Should you make that change up, Rescue is sitting pretty well.
You're only out powered by Tyd and Dalhia, and not by much there. Elvira and Lea disrupt early attempts at the Pillz chain. Elvira simply because of SoA, Lea because they'll have to blow their generated Pillz advantage just to beat her in a low pillz battle. Ulrich doesn't do much to Anita, Krash, or Suzie any of whom can be used against Ulrich if he pushes, or to ward off Ulrich if they push. And Steve on the other side can negate incoming fury.
I'd put a good player with Sledg and Rescue at 50% against a good player with Piranas everytime. Your scenario makes a lot of assumptions that aren't good. You've given the Piranas player a god hand of Tyd, Ulrich, and Sting, and assumed that the Rescue draws Steve, Sledg. The remaining two Rescue slots can totally change the game, not to mention what happens if you don't draw your hand of choice.
Though I do agree that if there's a clan with no weakness, its Piranas. A good Piranas player will match up pretty well against a good player packing almost anything else. And if Morphun is in play..
You've selected 1 situation out of all the things that can happen. 1, if all my other 3 cards are low stars, you might still go first. And honestly, you've selected everything to go weirdly in your way. Anything can happen in ELO, They might bluff with Sledg and there "who cares" card could be a furious Kerry. I wouldn't pill 12 on Tyd anyway, really. I don't think most people would.
Here is another way of looking at this:
Rescue is a clan that heavily depends on its bonus which makes Piranas one of its worst match ups.
Rescue has a character, Sledg which helps a lot in the Piranas match up.
Unfortunately Sledg is 5* which means when he is drawn the Rescue player has lost initiative 90% of the time.
This not only allows the Piranas player to counter Sledg with Tyd, Sting, Ulrich or whatever else, especially in a 1/2 deck, it allows Piranas to find favorable match ups everywhere else as well, controlling damage and pilling.
Not to mention, Piranas is already completely disrupting the typical "wait and see" Rescue pilling strategy.
If you work out the math, nothing the Rescue player does to deviate from "all in on Sledg" is going to help him against Piranas. He needs to win with Sledg. He can't win 3 rounds. He can't control which 2 rounds he wins. If one of the rounds he wins isn't Sledg, he can't win.
So Piranas vs. Sledg is not close to a 50/50 match up.
Even if Rescue draws both Sledg and Kerry think about it: if you play Kerry 2 or 4, she's terrible since she loses her SOB, and if you play Kerry 3 then Sledg isn't facing Tyd, Sledg is facing 10 power Sting. If you play Kerry 1, she gets reduced with Ulrich or I beat her with Smokey or another pill manipulator because you lose if you go all-in with her on the 1st turn.
Put it this way..in your situation the hands would likely be something like this:
Slyde - Sledg - Krash - Anita
Ulrich - Sting - Tyd - Tula
Rescue opens with Slyde. Piranas player plays Tula. 12 - 11 to Piranas life, all pillz remaining. Piranas player plays Ulrich. Rescue player plays Krash. Rescue player wins the round, life remaining is 11 - 13 (so Rescue are winning).
Now remember, this is YOUR SITUATION. Rescue player starts - he needs a win from either of his 2 cards. He plays 10 pillz Sledg, Tyd needs to use 11 to win, and Anita finishes off with her 2 pillz stronger than Sting's one..final life is 9 - 8 to Rescue.
Now you're going to say I came up with the perfect situation with Rescue which is true. BUT, you yourself said that rounds 1 and 2 would be trading DR while round 3 and 4 were important. I did that and Rescue came out on top with a clever play. Show me one player that uses all their pillz on Sledg against Piranas and I'll say you're right. But until then, it's all theory and no practicality.
Dude, your insistence that Sledg is best played with that many pillz is utterly ridiculous. You absolutely cannot take such specific situations and apply them to UR in such a general sense.
I've hardly ever seen Sledg used as you mention it, and that's because it's a foolhardy tactic that would be crushed the vast majority of the time.
The standard Rescue Elo deck when Sledg is available:
Sledg, Kerry, Glosh, Elvira, Anita, Lea, Krash, Steve.
Of that group 3 get their bonus against anything but a full stop. Two are defensive cards against SoB. Two pack a 7 power without the bonus, and only Glosh is dependent on his bonus. Again, if GHEIST and Roots got hit by ELO bans you can even drop Glosh for Suzie who rocks even without the bonus.
Rescue can work without the bonus. That's why Piranas aren't that bug a deal for Rescue if Sledg is around.