UmExcuseMe Imperator Thursday 03/06/2010, 07:42
Their -2 opp. power ability makes it just so powerful... Is there any REAL counter?
Seriously though, are there any decent clans or decks in ELO that have a consistent advantage over All Stars when Marina, Striker and Robb are all available? When you add in Eyrik, that's a massive -3 opp. power, and All Stars have cards with both high power (e.g., Marina, Jessie, Stacey, Robb with ability) and damage (e.g., Striker, Randy), and I'm not even talking about their 5* cards. Sure, there are decks that can compete on an even footing, but are there any that are better?
UmExcuseMe Imperator Monday 07/06/2010, 07:08
Concerning AS vs. Ulu Watu, this is my reasoning. Comparing the best 4*, I think most people would agree that Striker and Marina trump Buck and Shayna. As for the 3*, there's a case for saying that Nanook is comparable to Robb (I'd still prefer Robb due to the generally better power ratio), but Ulu Watu don't have a good 6-damage 3* like Randy. For 2*, I'd prefer Jessie, Ashley and Stacey over the Ulu Watu selection. Ulu Watu may have better 5*, but Eyrik fits so well with AS that it's not much of a factor.
I'm not sure what your links were meant to show. Perhaps if you take all the cards in both clans as a whole, they seem even. But UR is played with decks of 8 cards, and comparing the best 8-10 cards in the clans I see a clear advantage for AS.
"Consistently beat? Maybe, maybe not. That's /entirely dependent on luck of the draw and player skill."
Let's take luck and skill out of the equation. Assume two players of equal skill play each other 1000 times. One plays with AS, the other plays with deck X. Is there such a deck X that can win, say, 650 of the 1000 games? If there is one, I haven't found it. However, if we perform the same experiment with any other clan, I'd be pretty confident that I can find a deck X.
That's my point. Even for the decks you mentioned, it's a "real fight". This doesn't mean that no other deck will do well; it means that when all AS cards are legal, I expect AS to do well regardless of opposition. And AS is full strength a lot.
UmExcuseMe Imperator Monday 07/06/2010, 07:31
@wasteroftime: I think the problem is more serious than that. Having Caelus available made it more obvious, but I believe that even if Caelus was not around, AS would be strong (or at least not weak).
@PFSed: Not too mean at all. For the half of the games where you draw Ambre, you might have the advantage (unless the damage gets blunted by Marina/Ashley). For the other half without Ambre, I think AS should be better.
No clan isnherently weak against another clan, sure each clan has a few weaknesses but generally every clan can hold their own against each other.
As for allstars no clan is great against them but sum clans do betta than othas while facin them.
I use all stars and i find that the hardest to face are:
- a Junkz or a Sentinel Deck.
-The SOB clans r a pain but not that bad to face (nightmare is worse though).
-Roots also do decent as they are either equal or jus below the AS power with attack manipulation
- Montana r a pain in 5+ pill battles but who pillz 5 wit montana
Most other clans do decentish but not excellent against them, Hugo is definately the worst leader to face though
SOB + attack manipulation as i said earlier
Gibson Rowdy Veenyle Gil Smokey Dalhia Tyd Tula... bye bye AS
Ghumbo Oshitsune Pan Mawpin/Phyllis + Murray Sigma Uranus Nimestiec... also bye bye AS
mono AS is solid, but not unstoppable.... but if the question is about how well rounded and strong the clan is as a mono clan or with Eyrik -- that they certainly are.... and would arguably be one of the best in a mono environment
UmExcuseMe Imperator Monday 07/06/2010, 11:59
I'm not sure I have your confidence in the decks you mentioned, at least not to the extent of waving bye bye to AS. Every card in these decks have multiple counters in the AS deck (even if it's just using the DR of Marina and Ashley), and there's always a chance of a poor 3/1 draw. Still, these look promising.
To be honest, I like your two deck ideas. I just wish I had the cards to try them out!
I think perhaps I made a big mistake when I cheekily copied the thread title from the Rescue thread in the DT forum. No, I don't think AS is invincible, it's just that I couldn't see any readily exploitable weaknesses. There have been many suggestions for decks that will give AS a tough fight, but very few can claim a clear advantage. The best deck suggestions I've seen so far have some combination of SOB, attack manipulation, high power, decent damage and maybe pillz manipulation and DR. SOB alone is not enough, nor is attack manipulation alone, nor high power alone, etc. Your 2-clan constructions come closest, although even these decks may struggle to pass the 650/1000 test.
Basically, I feel that if a clan requires the opponent to have so many of these attributes just to have a fair fight, this is a sign that it's OP.
Z4KALW3 Hero Monday 07/06/2010, 15:31
Excuse, All of the reasons you've given for all stars dominance can easily be countered by the decks I've linked you to. SoB and Pillz manipulation can tear through AS, even with their strongest hand.
Or even no pill manipulation, I almost /never/ have awful trouble with AS when I'm running a piranas mono.
Let's make it even and say I'm running with Eyrik too (Eyrik, Hugo, and Morphun are my favourite leaders with Piranas)
Tyd can take down Striker and Marina pill for pill.
Tula can take down Randy and Robb without blinking, Marina pill for pill, Jessie pill for pill if you attack.
Taljion can take down Randy with ease. Striker pill for pill. Robb up to 6 Pillz.
Hawkins can take down Striker and Marina pill for pill.
Dalhia can take down Striker with relative ease (5 vs 7 power). Marina isn't a beast (6 vs 7). Eryik too (6 Vs 7) Her ability can be used to draw out Striker or Marina in the first round too. And she can overpill a little with it if you play around Striker.
Smokey Cr can overpill against anyone but striker.
Kristin can Take down: Striker, Robb, Randy, Stacy, Ashley,
Ulrich can be used to reduce: Robb, Randy, Marina, Eric.
I've never seen AS as a problem clan with any of the decks I play, I'm pretty sure if they were I'd have noticed it. Perhaps it's just your play style that makes them difficult to face for you?
SadisticCynic Hero Monday 07/06/2010, 16:44
I find AS relatively easy to play against, overpilling is the piranas' specialty, and AS can't really fight against that. tho i find some of the things you listed to be kinda... off? how is eyrik vs dalhia 6 vs 7 power? and kristin with her ability can take out any of the AS that isn't jessie( no eyrik involved).