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Is All Stars Invincible?

Is All Stars Invincible?
Thursday 03/06/2010, 07:42
UmExcuseMe - Imperator English

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92 messages
Is All Stars Invincible?
UmExcuseMe - Imperator English - Thursday 03/06/2010, 07:42

Their -2 opp. power ability makes it just so powerful... Is there any REAL counter?

Seriously though, are there any decent clans or decks in ELO that have a consistent advantage over All Stars when Marina, Striker and Robb are all available? When you add in Eyrik, that's a massive -3 opp. power, and All Stars have cards with both high power (e.g., Marina, Jessie, Stacey, Robb with ability) and damage (e.g., Striker, Randy), and I'm not even talking about their 5* cards. Sure, there are decks that can compete on an even footing, but are there any that are better?
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51/92
GarionKaiser - Imperator - Organized Konfusion English
Tuesday 08/06/2010, 23:53

I am an AS user and I can say they are not overpowered. It all depends on the deck and draw itself. Pilling, skill and other factors contribute.

I think u just have problems with AS.
52/92
UmExcuseMe - Imperator English
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 06:23

@Dr Traveler: This thread somehow generated 50+ posts, so I can understand how the message got lost somewhere. In my original post, I qualified: "are there any decent clans or decks in ELO that have a consistent advantage over All Stars when Marina, Striker and Robb are all available?"

I blame myself for the misleading thread title that I copied from another thread on a whim. Let me restate my question (hopefully) more clearly: Is there a deck that can consistently beat mono AS, assuming players of equal skill?

When I say that AS is OP, this does not imply that no other deck will do well in ELO. However, I believe when AS is full strength, it will ALWAYS do well in ELO. This is not true of other clans. This week, for example, most people believe that Sentinel will not dominate despite Copper being available due to Shakra, and Roots will in turn get nullified by decks like Rescue, who will have trouble with Piranas. Last week, Caelus was blunted by AS. What deck nullifies AS? I can't think of any.

That's all I'm saying. And if it's true that no deck can consistently beat AS, then TO ME, that's OP. Others may feel otherwise.

AS aren't dominating T1 or T2 because it is much easier to win with other decks that contain hideously OP cards, like Uppers with Jackie and Zatman, or Montana with Vickie Cr and Lyse Teria Cr.
53/92
Z4KALW3 - Guru
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 06:40

"Is there a deck that can consistently beat mono AS, assuming players of equal skill?"

Yes. Because equal skill does not mean equal pilling tactics.

There are plenty of decks that fit your criteria.
54/92
Z4KALW3 - Guru
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 06:44

What I meant to say is, every single clan has decks that can face them evenly, and decks that they are more powerful against (clan bonus v clan bonus).

AS cannot beat more decks consistently than any other clan, if that were the case you'd see nothing but AS in upper tier Elo.
55/92
wasteroftime - Moderator - Open Casket English
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 07:01

I think the better question is to ask.... are there any decent clans or decks in ELO that have a consistent advantage over All Stars when Marina (R), Striker (U) and Robb (R) are all available? AND at the same time, it will handle all other decks out there quite well.
56/92
Z4KALW3 - Guru
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 07:34

Well, not an easy win no, but that doesn't make them OP to the point of it being game breaking. Their are plenty of decks that can stand up to them.

Tbh, remove Marina and the clan is more than balanced. If Wee Lee is still perma-banned I've no idea why Marina gets to run free.
57/92
UmExcuseMe - Imperator English
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 07:38

@wasteroftime: Yes, that's exactly what I've been trying to express. Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a deck in ELO that can have a consistent advantage over a full strength AS even if it doesn't handle other decks well.

@shadowcouncil: Yes, I agree that AS may not beat more decks consistently than any other clan. However, I think no deck can consistently beat AS at full strength in ELO.
58/92
Z4KALW3 - Guru
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 07:47

Tbh Excuse, there aren't many people who can /consistently/ beat /any/ clan with /any/ deck. No one can but the best of the best.

There's too much luck of the draw, too many differing tactics, too many factors to consider. AS just don't pose the massive OP problem you suggest.
59/92
UmExcuseMe - Imperator English
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 09:43

@shadowcouncil: When comparing the relative strengths of decks or clans, you have to take luck and skill out of the equation as much as possible. That's why I proposed a theoretical 1000-game test between players of theoretically equal skill; the superior deck should beat the inferior deck, possibly 60-65% of the time. Theoretically.

Using this yardstick, I'm trying to find a deck that is superior to AS, and I can't find one. This does not imply that AS is superior to all decks in direct competition. But it seems that no deck is superior to AS in direct competition.

Also, while I think AS is OP, I don't think it's massively OP or broken (the big 5 is broken). OP just means "more powerful than it should be", which I think they are.

Actually, I'm with you in thinking that maybe all that's needed is the removal of Marina. I know I'll be voting her off the island every week.
60/92
Z4KALW3 - Guru
Wednesday 09/06/2010, 12:58

Well, that's my point. It's all a little point... less. Hypothetical/theoretical/whatevers don't matter when there are so many variables. it's all a little silly. But I do see your point, I'm mostly playing devils advocate.

I do agree that AS at full strength do, on paper at least, have one of the strongest hands in the game, and that the combination of abilities and clan bonus leaves them without a rock to their paper. However, I think we've established the problem: Marina. remove her and AS drop in power. They really don't have anyone close that can retain their OP status.

However, this really is only relevant when they draw their strongest hand, the rest of the time they can be dealt pretty easily with SoB. The combination of Striker and Marina is really the only thing that hurts.

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