@Abnormal: Just because people have opinions on a subject, it does not mean that the subject is a matter of opinion. This is a common logical fallacy.
There are two kinds of opinion:
1) Vortex is my favorite clan
2) Vortex is *the best clan* in ELO
While the first kind can't possibly be wrong, the second one can. We could find out which clan wins the most games in ELO, and THAT would be the best clan in ELO.
TLDR: What Oracle is doing is 100% fair game. There may be cases where people have posted opinions that are simply incorrect, so there's nothing wrong with debating them.
Quoted from Oracle: "EXACTLY you can control the cards in your deck, but not your opponents so that is why there is a point in discussing about how useful each and every card is."
That proves that you fail at giving appropriate examples. Try again. And how useful a card is depends on the other 7 cards in your deck. Of course there are cards that are obsolete. If you compare Striker and Alexei for example. It is obvious isn't it?
Quoted from Ghelas: "TLDR: What Oracle is doing is 100% fair game. There may be cases where people have posted opinions that are simply incorrect, so there's nothing wrong with debating them."
Oracle is asking for opinions. I stated mine and I told him bluntly this is pointless. He asked me to go away since I'm ruining this forum. I still don't understand how I am ruining it. Can you please tell how is it 100% fair to me? Is there any thing wrong with my input? After seeing his posts, I doubt he understand my point of view which is fine. He asked for opinions. I gave mine about this whole tier system. I even gave appropriate examples to support it while he gives inappropriate ones. Indeed, everyone have their own opinions but please don't go to the extend of saying xxx is ruining this thread. This is still on topic to be honest. It seems like public approval is more important than public opinion.
Not playing favorites here, since all of UR are my precious children (eww... kidding) but, your opinion was that the discussion is pointless. But the fact is that Oracle never asked for opinions. What I think Oracle was trying to initiate is a discussion about how useful what cards were, based on facts.
The truth is that there aren't just obsolete cards and not-obsolete cards. Some cards are very debatable. These debates can be backed up with thought experiments -- demonstrating if Card A is weaker in more situations than Card B.
I'm not just trying to be a jerk or browbeat anybody, but IMO what ELO really needs are players who are willing to consider different styles of play, look for synergies, etc. Too many players these days have developed a very defeatist, negative sort of attitude, valuing strong individual cards instead of considering how an average card might really shine in a certain deck. So, I personally am all for this kind of discussion -- it helps the entire mode develop, and it's certainly beneficial (and entertaining!) for many players to read it.
Saying that you're ruining the forum is a little out of line, of course... But maybe bashing this discussion by saying it had no meaning was, too.
2*: Cyb Lhia, Negodz (C Wing is really vulnerable to both SOA and SOB, Neloe's damage is too weak and she also has to be played early just like Cyb Lhia)
3*: Deea, (I like both Onyx and Qorah, but X-0DUS invalidates both of them)
4*: X-0DUS, Dagg, Heegrn Cr
5*: Oflgn, Sekutor, C Beast, Dregn, Shaakarti, Naele (Sorry, but Vortex is the one clan where 8 power isn't a priority. Versatility is though, so Naele's conditional is a huge detriment, and Shaakarti again is invalidated by X-0DUS)
The best Vortex hit hard. This is why C Beast, Heegrn Cr and Sekutor are better than they may appear to be in theory.
When Shaakarti doesn't have her ability, she is still 7/7. When Naele doesn't have her ability, she is 5* Lohvak, and Lohvak isn't even playable at 4*. In Vortex, you would always take 7/7 over 8/5.
Tula only continues to be useful because Piranas desperately need damage. However, she is only a blowout against 6 power characters, and pretty much any Piranas character is a blowout against 6 power characters. If my opponent throws out a 6 power character, I'd hit that with Tyd or Scubb or anyone... Piranas have no lack of characters to fight 6 power.
And now, if you need 4 damage on a 2*, you have Kalder.
2*: Hawkins, Kalder, Puff, Tula, Trey
3*: Tyd, Taljion, Deadeye
4*: Scubb, Coleridge, Sting, Raeth, Sheryl
5*: Dalhia, Lizbeth, Ahkab, Bloodh, Selma, Slimian, Pesth
Good observations -- but you're overlooking a few things. Vortex has enough good round-winners that you're pretty much destined to land a hit in turn 1 or 2 (if you didn't, you are doing something wrong.) That makes Naele a powerful fork by turn 2 or 3. If you have another big threat card in your hand, that can often be an automatic win.
As for courage cards being invalidated by X-0... X-0, Shaakarti, and Qorah have good enough base stats to sneak in a surprise hit in an off-courage turn, and recover pills if your opponent called your play. I don't feel like putting two Courage cards in your deck is necessarily bad, and that is especially true of Vortex cards.
First, @ ghelas: unless you can provide me hard factual evidence that one card is indeed always better than another, this thread is 100% based on opinion. Don't try to pull "logical fallacies" on me. No evidence = matter of opinion. Moving on....
The point that cyber is trying to make, and you're all arguing over (and hissing witch over) like fools, is that usefulness is CONDITIONAL. If you value the same ability the same way on every card, in every situation, in every deck, you're doing it wrong, and you're missing the key point of deck building. Since this is a thread focused on deck building, what he gave was the most valuable advice.
These threads pop up every month or two, and it's just a place for people to spit out the same 3-4 names of staples and then bicker pointlessly about 1-2 cards that differ depending on deck composition, and playstyle, and the ban/unbans that week. For example, we all know that Jessie is a great 2 star All Stars. But what about Kang vs Karen vs Robb Cr? obviously, you'd look at the rest of your deck, and the bans/unbans, and fill in according to your weakness.
trying to make a tier list is just worthless pontification, and you could all spend your time much better doing something constructive (like actually building a deck/playing elo) than sitting here bickering when you disagree/slapping epeens when you agree, when in all honesty any card's usefulness is CONDITIONAL.
Comparing Alexei and Striker is not obvious at all, considering that in ELO mode Striker is perma banned, meaning Alexei is actually the better card in ELO mode.
No one has done Jungo yet I am a rookie and I was hoping for opinions on Jungo tier for ELO. Here's what I've gathered so far:
2*: Pegh > Jean > Mindy > Borss, Ashiko, Elea, Wendy for mono Jungo, Jean > Mindy > Pegh for half deck if backed by better 2 star DR such as Pussycats or Spiaghi, for example.
3*: This one is really tricky for me. The useful 3* cards in Jungo are plenty and they shine individually in different strategies and half deck or mono deck setups. Overall, I would say Rodney and Gerald come first, Radek, Nyema, Scopica and Odile are second tier, Jalil, Hystrix, Dagouba and Boohma third tier because they are either a tiny bit worse (Jalil is essentially Nyema with less gap potential, Hystrix's poison is too weak, Boohma is unreliable, Dagouba is conditional and trickier to come through than Gerald).
4*: Here it comes down to personal preference. My personal opinion is Buba > Chill > Niva > the rest in no particular order. Sylth is of course perma banned, and this discussion is about ELO. In more defensive oriented decks Niva, Greow, Scotty, Ronald and Psylo can be more valuable, of course. The meta game plays a vital role in which card is currently preferable.
5*: Ongh, followed closely by Troompah and Askai (Askai is better in half decks, Troompah in mono). Nahema is just a tiny bit behind.
@Kitsune I just covered Vortex actually hahaha and I completely disagree with you on 2*s tho
also Amiral Coco takes second place def... kalden is almost last place
Ector takes 1st or 2nd also
Raeth takes second....
5*s again read first page very debatable
Jean>Pegh Jean is actually on borderline of getting banned 8 power soa too good Ashiko takes 4th place
agree with you on 3* but i actually go with scopiga/Radek/Rodney first Gerald is underrated tho but 6 power is terrible
wow Chill is terrible what are you saying I personally like Benicio in half decks havnt tried the others
ummmm WOW Askai is first in half decks i think Ongh comes close tho. in mono Troompah is the first place.
My reasonings are the following:
Jean vs Pegh - I use both in my Jungo Mono deck, so I never had to choose between them, but Pegh is the only good DR option for mono Jungo, that's why he's absolutely a must in said mono Jungo decks while Jean can be substituted if SoA is covered by other cards, even though I agree he is my favorite hands down.
On the 3*: Scopica is really good but Radek and Rodney both come through more often, so they are more reliable, as for Gerald, he is extremely resourceful because he always gives the opponent a piece of his/her own medicine, while usually being potentially a 6/7.
On the 4*, I am going to admit that I haven't played Chill or Benicio, so I will trust your judgment and I stand corrected.
On the 5*, I said exactly that: Troompah is better in mono decks, Askai in half decks, and Ongh is a beast in both. To me he comes first primarily because he's better when facing SoA and because he's better in high pill rounds. But to me the three are really close.