This week in ELO has brought a game balance problem to my attention. Now that Copy Bonus cards are becoming a little bit more prominent, and many clans are getting powerful 8 power cards, SoB clans are starting to feel outdated. In UR's delicate ecosystem, SoB clans were usually a balancing force. They messed up games for clans that have incredibly good synergy between bonus and ability. A good deck had to be able to defend against both SoA and SoB without losing the ability to win rounds.
A good example of how damaging underpowered SoB clans are to the game is Jungo. Askai is currently unbanned, and the vast majority of ELO players are either running him or have tried to run him this week. If SoB clans weren't weak in the current metagame, running Jungo would pose a risk of a low damage draw, even with Askai. Many Jungo staples have mediocre damage, if they are deprived of their bonus. With SoB clans too weak to threaten Jungo, they are becoming overused. The same can be said of All Stars... Deprived of their incredible round-winning bonus, they struggle to secure the rounds they need. However with Saki's arrival, and Robb Cr unbanned, All Stars pack an even bigger round winning punch and gain the ability to wall vs SoB clans.
Has anyone else noticed this? I think Lizbeth is a step in the right direction, but her price puts her out of reach of many players...
Idk if anyone mentioned this already but powering up these sob clans could potentially screw up every other clan in the game, i dont know much about this but when my brother used to play (before i started) he would talk to me about elo and tell me stuff like "omg pirana is so op... faceroll elo wins... sob rules" ect ect ect point being if you give them too much power and to big of abilities like some of the clans without offensive bonuses have it could great a huge advantage for some of those players and there was a time (before alot of the newer powerhouses came out) where almost every top elo player used piranas (this also used to be an issue with rescue) yes you see alot of the same clans but imagine taking your favorite deck (junks or uppers or sakrohm, montana, bangers, ulu watu ect) and running in to all SOB that would be unfair if you werent set up with enough prot and stop bonus abilities in your deck. lots of complaints go out and so the staff makes new cards to combat the sob and sob become obsolete just like when they ban characters to prevent same deck wins all the time (lehane with sents all those ghiest ect) a balence has to be made for elo to be fair to all players of all clans, to simply power up sob for elo would be unfair to players who like to have more strategy based games not just pill winning face rolls. (ulrich may not be the best ban choice but he certainly calmed down some of the pirana spam i would say)
0_4DPaladin Veteran Tuesday 04/12/2012, 02:55
Forgot about this thread. I wouldn't mind a boost for Piranas, however it would have to be quite subtly (Spelling fail), since giving us a DR or defeat + life card would make round 1 stupid 50-50s worse than Freaks currently.
The reason I use Piranas (Aside from them being the best clan in ELO ) is that you'll need someone to keep those Jungo/Freaks derp-decks in line. Expecially with Amiral Coco, Piranas easily beat Freaks, and give Jungo a good run for thier money (Although a nice counter-Askai would be nice). Its like being a police officer
As for weakness vs. Defeat: + life (Like Lola): I don't think anyone should (But hey, they do it anyways) be running Puff in mono personally, and 2 dmg without any other factors (At least Hawkins has pillz manip.) is highly unadvisable, since Piranas get out-damaged against all the other clans.
The way I see it is that Piranas is a really solid clan. and through deck building, you can play to your strength (Like frozn + kalindra derp) or try to reduce your weaknesses. For piranas, the second IMO is much more important, and by doing that you play to your strengths by becoming even more solid.
One last stab at Puff: I'm sure most Puff users use Lizbeth as well, but get turned off by the otherwise low amount of damage the clan offers and switch to Frozn or some other less-skilled clan. Correctly played I think Piranas are the strongest clan: Pillz>Life, why do you lose pillz but gain life in Survivor?
nervous wmd Imperator Tuesday 04/12/2012, 04:40
The person with the most pills at the end of the game doesn't necessarily win.
The person with the most life at the end of the round always wins.
slav.georgiev.3 Senior Tuesday 04/12/2012, 21:54
Piranas and even Nightmare are hardly underpowered in my opinion. What these two clans do is change the face of the game. Most other clans builds their decks around their clan bonus, and the SoB clans take that away. It then comes down to ability vs ability, and Piranas and Nightmare have their fair share of abilities just like everyone else.
The problem is that there are only a handful of clan bonuses but an endless combination of abilities, so for Piranas and Nightmare the differences in strategy from game to game vary more greatly than for most other clans. That puts of players that are habitual or inexperienced. Every single game, every single round has to be thought out individually, while the majority of other mono decks and even many of the half decks are based around similar strategies for the majority of their games.
I am over-simplifying of course, each game is slightly different. But for decks that rely on Ability vs Ability, this stands true more profoundly and that's what makes them a bit trickier in my opinion.
0_4DPaladin Veteran Tuesday 04/12/2012, 23:47
While that may be true for NM, Piranas have pillz manip + low damage: making 99% of the games about winning 3/4 rounds.
True, but pillz let you win rounds, and won rounds let you do damage. IMO Pillz manip>Damage early game, which makes it easier to manipulate pillz in later rounds too.
slav.georgiev.3 Senior Wednesday 05/12/2012, 10:31
What you said is correct but it doesn't contradict to what I said. Yes, Piranas need 3/4 wins in most cases. However, HOW they achieve these 3/4 wins in terms of particular strategy for each particular game varies more greatly than, say, Sentinel which also usually need 3/4 wins but can rely on the same strategy game after game with relative consistency.
My whole point is that the extent to which a Piranas or Nightmare player must adapt to their opponent's particular set of abilities from game to game is slightly bigger than the majority of other mono and half deck setups.
0_4DPaladin Veteran Thursday 06/12/2012, 00:58
"However, HOW they sesachieve these 3/4 wins in terms of particular strategy for each particular game varies "
Win rounds, manip. pillz, win 3/4 rounds. I don't think I've ever had to derive from that strategy.
I think that describes the biggest weakness of the Piranas exactly: they have to win the 3 rounds most of the time.
Overpilling a card like Scubb, who brings a chunk of his pills right back to you, is all well and good, but what about their other cards? Both pilling too high OR too low carry certain risks, and pilling moderately is just asking for a card that you need to win to get beaten. The Piranas are a higher risk clan than most others, currently... And the fact that your opponent probably knows your strategy does not help matters.
Im using a half deck of FPC and Piranas this week, not bad for, but hey i am a 1200 elo player, still need help reaching higher grounds.
When using Piranas its tiring sometimes when you lose by 1 damage or you win 3 rounds and in the end some card turns the whole game around. But I do feel that in more trained hands then mine piranas can still wreak havoc in most games. Honestly I would love to see a better power manip in the clan, a 4 stars maybe since there is one in every level but that, something like deadeye but more deadlier.
I can understand why a DR in Piranas is so dangerous, not only you stop their bonus, and in the cases of some clan it reduces greatly their damage, bezerk, fpc, la junta, freaks, frozn, jungo. it also reduces the damage of the card itself, a dr with sob is like the ultimate dr. But i would love to see sothing like smokey unbanned. Trey is useless, and in the 3 star category nobody makes pill manip. An 8/2 with defeat plus 2 pills would be really awesome. I can dream, but that aint gonna happen.
And yes conventional piranas decks are very predictable, thus making things really hard for the user, 63 atack on selma anyone?
0_4DPaladin Veteran Thursday 06/12/2012, 23:10
Cards that aren't Scubb or Selma are used to draw pillz from your opponents, such as Taljion or Raeth. Your opponent has to pill to get over the attack manip, or eat some damage. And to further complicate things, you can throw on a few pillz in order to scare your opponent into pilling even more.