offline Tansur Hero The Trend
Saturday 20/10/2012, 01:49

I wonder what people would say if a clan came out with a bonus of +2 pillz.

offline Pilluminati Titan URBAN MADNESS
Monday 22/10/2012, 02:53

You'd either kill the vortex or make them one of the most broken 1-2 punches in the game and consequently get a number of both clans banned.

now i'm not saying i wouldn't entertain the idea straight-up,but if we're talking confidence +2 pills or a -1 pill minimum 5 like eklore,sure,why not,let's make it happen,but straight up? eh,not really.

offline ghelas Titan E X C A L I B U R
Monday 22/10/2012, 06:05

Okay, to reiterate...

This theoretical clan's bonus is +2 pills

A 7 power in this clan would need to use 2 extra pills to beat a 7 power in any pill manipulation clan

Can someone explain in a rational way why they might be OP? Their bonus is situationally very handy, but takes the spot where, in ELO, you usually see SoB, SoA, or heavy attack manip. They would not end up with a huge pill advantage. They would not end up with some kind of unearthly synergy with Vortex, because, once again -- if you lose with a Vortex card and gain a pill, *you still have to overpill by 2 to beat any attack manip clan in a subsequent round.*

Does anyone have an objection that's based on math and numbers and stuff, as opposed to bad experiences with people who overpill Grudj/Naginata/Scubb?

offline TheDoomBug Colossus Limit Break
Monday 22/10/2012, 07:23

I can't think of a reason why a good player would go overboard for just two pillz. If you play 8 pillz and win 2 back, you've still lost half of your pillz for one card. If you did that for four pillz, you'd have only lost a third.

We've got precident on balancing pill clans, by the way. Piranas rely on their bonus to keep their low power from getting stomped by attack clans and Junkz have damage low enough that one good round can beat them. Here's the advantage they have over this theo clan: Piranas outright block the +pillz and the Junkz bonus is basically a free pill every round.

Ghelas, I applaud your math and logic.

I would design this theo clan like Jungo, Berzerk, and Freaks; a clan with solid cards that don't need their bonus to win rounds or matches, but certainly like having it and can use it to destroy unwary players. The focus should be on the cards specific abilities and stats.

offline mihalll7_UM Event team URBAN MADNESS
Monday 22/10/2012, 13:10

I vote for the next bonus to be +1 power & +1 damage
I posted it few years back, but always thought it's not possible to be introduced, but we have such ability now, so why not?

offline subclavianHoA Imperator  
Monday 22/10/2012, 13:29


I think you have misunderstood my post...I'm not talking about +2 pills being overpowered. It simply promotes 50-50s by needlessly increasing the importance of winning each round. Comparing +2 pills with vortex or attack manip clans is quite frankly illogical, since those clans have a fallback when they lose and a +2 pill bonus is win-or-bust. Let me break it down for you:

Win with attack manip: Gain life gap, lose pills
Lose with attack manip: Gain pill gap (since opponent has to spend pills against attack manip), lose life

Win with +2 pill bonus: Gain life gap, gain pill gap
Lose with +2 pill bonus: Lose life, lose pills

Guess which bonus promotes 50-50s? It's not "math", it's logic smiley

Of course, a +2 bonus would be great for bluffing, in which case you could potentially lose life but gain pills, or, as you repeatedly stated in your post using pills as some sort of placeholder for attack manip, overpill and gain life but lose pills. But both bluffing and overpilling are very 50-50ish moves, since there's no way you'd know if your opponent calls your bluff (in which case you would lose a lot of life *without* gaining pills) or not falling for your trap (in which case you lose a lot of pills while gaining minimal life gap).

I reiterate, there's no such thing as an "overpowered" bonus, only overpowered cards. A +4 power bonus would not be overpowered if every card in that clan has a base power of 4. However, certain abilities/bonuses promote 50-50ing.

offline Alhalish Veteran URBAN MADNESS
Monday 22/10/2012, 15:14

I think that this clan will be weak. In a way, this clan's bonus is basically "+X attack".

Unlike a real attack manipulating bonus however, this bonus can't help you in a tight spot, such as outpowering Spyke and Caelus Cr, and unlike the Vortex bonus, which can guarantee an easy 2HKO if you play your cards right, this bonus doesn't work well with Revenge based abilities or Frozn.

The only way to fully utilize this clan's bonus, is by pairing it with power/atack manipulating clans. In mono, this clan will work just like Freaks. That of course, if this clan has many cards with 7 or 8 power and good abilities.

offline Tansur Hero The Trend
Monday 22/10/2012, 16:22

I reiterate: the whole point of my starting this thread was to see what controversy would start over a clan whose bonus would be equivalent to uppers/Montana/rescue ONLY when you win. It is interesting to see that some people think the clan would be OP or break the game, when we already have three clans that basically get two extra pills per round through their attack manip REGARDLESS of whether they win or lose...yet they are ok...

offline ghelas Titan E X C A L I B U R
Monday 22/10/2012, 16:42


This is the part of your argument that I'm not understanding... How does winning with a +2 pill bonus necessarily create a positive pill gap? The bonus is essentially equivalent to attack manip. For example, when you have to play at least 8 pills to beat an opponent from Sentinel who 6 pilled, *where* does the positive pill gap comes from?


My thoughts exactly, but replace "weak" with "balanced." It's definitely not a bonus that offers a huge strategic bonus by itself. It would have to rely on synergy with abilities to really make it shine. SoB and CoB sound really good in this clan, as does pill recovery, etc. A card with support: attack manip could really play some mindgames with your opponent, as well...

You might think that those abilities work great in any clan, but I can see situations where those abilities combined with pill gain would be a very effective way to punish your opponent for early overpills. I think it could result in a pretty unique play style, if done right.

offline subclavianHoA Imperator  
Monday 22/10/2012, 18:08

Yes, overpilling with a pill manip card to cover for an attack deficiency is great when you win, but what happens when you lose? You lose both life *and* pills. What I'm saying, and what people don't seem to understand, is that +pill and attack manip are two completely different beasts.

Attack manip gives you something when you win (life gap) and something when you lose (pill gap), and punishes you for overpilling. +pill gives you everything when you win (life and pills) and nothing when you lose (unless you've successfully bluffed), and rewards you for overpilling. If you've ever played against opponents with too many pill manip cards in their hands, you'd know how often these games devolve into 50-50s.

I reiterate, there's no such thing as an "overpowered" bonus. But some cards, by virtue of creating 50-50s, degrade the UR gaming experience. Which is why I oppose a pill manip bonus.

offline ghelas Titan E X C A L I B U R
Monday 22/10/2012, 20:13


"Yes, overpilling with a pill manip card to cover for an attack deficiency is great when you win, but what happens when you lose? You lose both life *and* pills."

Sorry, but that's just not making any sense to me. I think you are seeing net gains/net losses where there are none. You don't actually *have* two extra pills just because your bonus says that you get two if you win; it's conditional. You are not losing pills if you let an opponent's card through -- in fact, if your opponent was expecting you to pill hard on the first turn, you may be creating a much bigger pill advantage by letting his card through.

To me, a 50/50 card is something that almost always decides the outcome of the game if it lands (Askai, Cliff, Greem, Azel, Avola, Kenny, Kalindra, etc etc.) So, just a matter of opinion of course, but a card that doesn't cause a rather large amount of life gap, or enough pill gap to actually 3-round your opponent, isn't a 50/50 card. There is no reason why this clan would necessarily have more of them than any other clan does.

Answer to this subject

Clint City, day.