Focus on the real reason for timeout/withdrawl Tansur - Guru - The Trend - Thursday 28/06/2012, 17:38
With the new points rules coming in to play I think it's time to address the reason people timeout. The current rules penalize a person for timing out or abandoning a match, but this fails to address their motivation. When a person times out they are past the point of caring about penalties. They are mad, frustrated, embarrassed that they lost and they want to take it out on the person who beat them. It's a "if I'm going down, your going down with me" mentality, and is a glaring example of poor sportsmanship, but there is obviously some satisfaction to it regardless of how pathetic it is. With this in mind I think it is important we focus not what a person in this state of mind is accomplishing, and why it is so satisfying.
As I have already mentioned, the penalty to the "abandoner" is moot, as they are more focused on punishing the player who is about to beat them. Why are they satisfied? They are satisfied because they are able to sabotage their opponent's points. Now the amount of points stolen from the winner varies depending on the situation but lets consider a situation where:
- It's the third round
- It is obvious that the one player will win by KO in round 4
- Once the winning player wins round 4 they will have won all four rounds
Ok, so here is a list of point the winning player WILL NOT receive because their opponent timed-out:
+4 pts for playing the fourth round (rounds are now scored 1/1/2/4)
+2pts/round won (no fourth round)
+5pts if you win 4 rounds
+2pts if life >= 12
+2pts if pills >= 1
+2pts for KO
That’s 17 points the “abandoner” was able to screw out of their opponent! It’s only 13 if I’m wrong about the life and pills, but if you’re so P.O.’d that you Don’t care about your own penalty for timing out then that’s a huge accomplishment! You just screwed that person out of almost as many points as you just lost for timing out!
Ok, ignore the last post! as now I see the finalized points system in the newest thread on that topic and its even worse! So here is a list of point the winning player WILL NOT receive because their opponent timed-out:
+8 pts for playing the fourth round (rounds are now scored 1/1/2/4)
+6pts for winning round 4 having already won rounds 1-3 (no fourth round 16-9=6)
+5pts if you win 4 rounds
+2pts if life >= 12
+2pts if pills >= 1
+2pts for KO
That’s 25 points the “abandoner” was able to screw out of their opponent! It’s only 21 if I’m wrong about the life and pills, but if you’re so P.O.’d that you Don’t care about your own penalty for timing out then that’s a huge accomplishment! You just screwed that person out of MORE points than you just lost for timing out!
So in this situation, both the players are receiving substantial penalties for the petty actions of one of them. In fact, the winner was penalized MORE than the loser! If you truly want to stop people from timing out, you have to remove this ability to take revenge on your opponent.
It is my opinion that if someone times out, their opponent should not only be awarded the win, but also be given the benefit of the doubt and awarded any potential points they could have won. Yes, they should receive the maximum possible points EVEN IF THEY WOULD NOT HAVE WON THEM IF THE GAME WENT TO COMPLETION. Assume they won with 12+ life, 1+ pill, won the last round, won by KO, etc. This way, the person considering timing out because they are so mad at their opponent must consider the fact that they are not penalizing their opponent by timing out, but are actually going reward them points they may not deserve. In fact, the only way to truly penalize them is to play that last round and try to reduce the points they are rewarded by actually playing and using skill or strategy.
Please consider this and give feedback for or against.
I think the 17 point scenario is incredibly unlikely. A whole lot of things would have to coincide for most of those to be true (4 round wins are rare in a 12 life format, there are almost no scenarios where you start round 4 with 1 pill but end it with 2 or more, etc.) What's more, the game may count the rounds as "played" when they start, rather than when they complete (I don't know this for sure but it makes a lot more sense if it is done that way.)
Regardless, you have a really good point... DTs are all about how many points you average per minute, and an extra 30 seconds lost is a lot of points missed. The person who's "stalling out" may have absolutely nothing to lose -- they might be at a point where top 33% is already impossible for them.
The trouble is that these guys are difficult to deal with. Penalizing them heavily is bad, because players who timed out due to connection issues or something similar will be outraged. Rewarding players who experienced an opponent time-out is both unfair and exploitable, as the stallers would just learn to make their move in the last 5 seconds.
I proposed a system for detecting and reporting malicious stalling, but a lot of people seemed to feel it was just too complicated. Maybe there's another good solution available, but it's definitely not easy to think of something that would satisfy everybody!
I thought this was going to be about when you submit your move just out of time.
Right now I'm super pissed because just now I did play my move in time, I even got to see the "waiting for opponent" screen, but then the game told me I'd taken too long. Coupled with 2 previous matches where I simply took too long to submit and suddenly I have an unhappy face and got a message telling me I can't play for a while and that it's annoying for the opponent when you timeout a match.
You don't say!
I'm probably more annoyed because now I can't play the game for a while despite being a perfectly fair player who always plays a match to the end regardless and ONLY ever timeouts from thinking my move over a bit too long. Doesn't seem fair that I get the same treatment as some of the jerks who can't take losing a match...
I agree with Tansur completely. In my experience if you play DT for a full hour you will get at least 2 time-outing opponents (and up to 5 in Standart). About 50% of timeouts occur after round 1,2 or 3, when your opponent will most likely loose at least 3 rounds. This kind of battles usually cost me at least 30-40 points which are most likely to determine the outcome of the tourney.
I don't like the fact that there are stallers and stuff it did make me lose a few DT wins to be honest and I am mad about that.... I just lost one now just about 18 minutes ago due to some stallers.... however, it may just be internet connection problems or something. This is a game with multiplayer global. That is a lot harder to deal with. I have bad internet connection sometimes and I feel bad when it times me out. I realize that people may not think the same, but everyone should be treated fairly. I mean if people have bad internet connection and they time out, you may assume that they are stalling when they are not. Some already feel bad that they timed out. Well, the ones that don't do it intentionally at least. However, everyone else faces that issue. Since everyone faces that issue, everyone is getting pentalized. When I say everyone, I mean everyone participating in the tourney. Odds are people who are trying to make it at least to the top third will probrably face a staller.
I have to LOL, have you ever thought some people just play the tourney for the top 1/3rd? Maybe they are doing other things while playing in the tourney? Maybe it slipped their mind they had an on going match? Or maybe they just don't care all the much? It's not always about you, and someone who times out just to spite you. People have lives, get used to it.
This is from someone who has quite a few top 5 and top 10 DT finishes. It happens, you can't change it.
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